How to Write Your First Book with Kate Hanley

Julie: 00:00:00

A couple of years after I started my company, I knew I wanted to write a book. I tried for years to write it on my own. I mean, I knew my content inside and out, so I thought it would be easy to write a book that compiled all of the things I knew about networking. Boy was I wrong? Welcome to episode 44, where I talk with book writing, coach and ghost writer, Kate Hanley, about how to get your book out of your head and onto the page. This episode is sponsored by Nickerson. A full service, branding, marketing, and PR and communications agency with team members in Boston. LA Miami and New York city. When I started writing my book, I would carve out weekend trips to my house in Vermont, all by myself, just me and my laptop typing away in front of her roaring fire, a glass of wine on the side table. I can't tell you how many weekends I did this, but I could never get the book to be a book. I didn't know how to write a book. You see writing a book is more than compiling all of your expertise and putting it on paper. When you were writing a book, you were taking the reader on a journey. And while on that journey, you need to explain where you're going. You need to make sure the reader doesn't get lost. And you also need to make sure that your reader doesn't get bored and actually cares about the destination. After struggling for more than a year to write the book on my own, I attended a two day writing conference where through divine intervention or serendipity or kismet, or however you describe meeting the exact person you need in your life at the exact right time. I met Kate Hanley. Kate sat next to me on the second day. And we started talking. When I asked her what she did. She mentioned that she was a book writing coach and a ghost writer. Paranthetically Kate's pretty humble. So she didn't mention that she is not just any ghost writer, but a New York times bestselling ghost writer. Long story short. I hired Kate to help me get my book out of my head and onto the page. I know to this day that had I not hired Kate to coach me through the process, I would still be spending long weekends in Vermont, struggling, to tell my story. I know that the reason that my book is an actual book and not a bunch of disparate shitty chapters is because of her guidance and her magic. This is why I have asked Kate to join us today because I know the frustration of having a story to tell and not being able to put all of the words and ideas together. In addition to being in New York times, bestselling ghost writer. Kate is also a personal development coach, as well as the host of the, how to be a better person podcast. She has published several books of her own, including stress less a year of daily calm in the anywhere, anytime chill guide. Kate i'm so excited to have you here today

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:03:14

no, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:03:17

So you can tell me how you got into the business of ghost writing and maybe if maybe some of the listeners don't know what that is. So can you explain a little bit what that is versus you're a writer and a ghostwriter, so what's the difference.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:03:32

I know ghost writer is this very intriguing term. Isn't it? Ghost? What is that? Even a lot of the books that you read that you see on bestseller lists. I mean, not all of them, but a lot of them, the person whose name is on the cover. As the author had someone actually help them get those 70,000 words down on the page in some sort of order. That makes sense in some sort of way that lands in people's hearts and minds. Um, it's not easy to write a book as you know, which is not to say that it's impossible. Some people know exactly what they want to say, and they just don't have the time. Some people have the platform don't really know what they want to say. Either way, you still need to do a lot of thinking about what the purpose of the book is. And then you have to spend a lot of hours in the chair getting those words down on the page and a ghost writer can help you do that. So when I work as a ghost writer, I am literally writing the book.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:04:31

Okay.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:04:32

So you asked the difference between ghost writing a book and writing a book. And so it's probably fairly obvious, but when you're writing a book, you're doing it yourself. um, although notebook is written on its own, every buddy needs an editor, multiple editors, multiple different kinds of editors. We can talk about that at some point, if you want to, but there's a lot of people involved in the process, even when you're the one writing the book. And then as a ghost writer, you're writing a book. For someone else in someone else's voice for their aims and maybe not necessarily what you would write, if you were going to write the same book, it's really about them, the author.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:05:10

I heard you once say that a book is a business card on steroids. Can you explain what you mean?

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:05:17

So, I mean? ultimately books are written. To be read, right. This is the perspective that I bring to every conversation. When someone tells me that they want to write a book, it's sort of an, you know, when we're trying to figure out what the book is about, I'm like, what does the reader need to hear? That's most of the purpose of a book, but of course, writing a book is a personal development seminar. First of all, it's a very big deal to take everything, you know, into the pages because you want people to believe that you have the credibility to call yourself an author, but you have to remember that the book is as well being written to be read, not to make you feel better about yourself or prove how smart you are. However, in addition to being a personal development seminar, a book can be just this amazing calling card. It. Even though they're self publishing, there's hybrid publishing there's traditional publishing. There's all these ways to get a book out there. But when you say I wrote a book on this subject, people are like, well, hot, damn they did. They just lean in a little closer and they're more interested to hear what you have to say. And it is a business card on steroids. In that, for example, you were speaking. Right. You were already getting speaking gigs. You didn't necessarily need a book to get speaking gigs cause you were already getting them. However, now you have this incredible leave behind that you could sell and make more money. When you're in the room and you say you have a book and you've just spoken to people and they were laughing and learning and loving you. They're going to want to buy your book, but then they're going to buy two and maybe give it to a friend who also books, events, or speakers, or even just wants to read it. It just increases your sphere of influence in a very powerful way.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:07:03

So one thing I thought that was interesting when you and I first started working together and I hadn't thought about it. I knew I wanted to write a book. I knew I had all of this expertise. I knew I wanted to get it out of my head and disseminate it to a larger audience. But one thing about working with you is in the beginning of working together, you really. Try to get out of me what I wanted to get out of the book and what I wanted the readers to get out of the book. And who were the readers? What age would the readers be? Would they be men or women? Like, and I never even thought about all of these things, like who am I writing this book for? And I think that was a really interesting process for me to go through with you is like, okay, who is this? Who is this book for? Who was going to read this book? I think that's an important step.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:07:47

Oh, it's huge. And what do they need and what do they not need? You know? Cause I think this instinct kicks in where you're like, I have to tell them everything that I know, but if you tell them everything that you know, and they just get completely overwhelmed and put the book down and think this shit is too hard, this shit may work, but it's too hard for me or there's too much of it for me to process then guess what? There's no point in you having written your book in the first place. So. It really is. It's a, it's an exercise in empathy, mostly for your readers, but also for yourself. Um, I do think it's important to think about what you want the book to do for you, because then you can sort of reverse engineer the book a little bit to be able to deliver on that promise for yourself. Um, and there's different ways to do that, of course, you can't just start writing. I mean, I guess you can, there's always multiple ways to get where you want to go. Right. But to me, The most important thing is all the thinking that comes first. I think of it like, you know, Marie Kondo, the life-changing magic of tidying up lady. I know she's kind of controversial. I. Frankly loved that book. I thought it was like the best title I'd ever seen. The life-changing magic of tidying up. I just saw it on the shelf and I was like, well, I need that because I'd like to, I like magic and I liked changing my life and I hate cleaning. So I'm so glad I only have to tidy, but she talks about taking everything that you own. Like she says, if you're going to, if you're going to purge your closet, Right. She wants you to take out your underwear. She wants you to take out your summer clothes from the basement. She wants you to take out the random shit. That's right. Stuck in the back of your shelf in your closet that you haven't looked at in 13 years, I put it all on the bed. And that's an important part of the process too. And part of what we did after we thought about your readers and we thought about you is I like to think that we, we put all your, all your random clothes on the bed, because that's the only way you can kind of sift through and be like, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. Um, and then to me, it's, it's more about. Let's see, let's figure out what doesn't go, w what we don't need and see what's left. And then you can kind of start to Steve. Here's the structure, here's the progression. Here's the journey That we're taking people on that kind of thing. And I think that's so fun. I think that's like the funnest part.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:10:02

That was, I remember thinking after we did that process, when we took all my shit out and we put it on the bed and we took out what didn't work and we had a table of contents, and then I remember you were like, okay. And now you write. And I was like, fuck, like, but then you were like, you don't have to start at the beginning. You, right. I remember you saying to me, right. About what you feel like writing about today. And so I looked at the 10 chapters and it was like, whatever I was feeling about writing that day is what I wrote about you. I didn't have to start at the beginning and go to the end. We had already laid out the map and I could just write about what I felt like writing.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:10:34

that's right. It's True. Once you have that map, you have a lot of freedom. You know, structure creates freedom is like, uh, uh, Term that, I've learned in the coaching world. And it's absolutely true because then you don't have to think like, oh God, how am I going to talk about this? I have to talk about this because it's chapter two and I've already written chapter one, but you could zoom down to chapter eight. It's it's going to be so much more enjoyable. Maybe you will achieve some of that fantasy of typing in your fingers, flying over the keyboard and the wind blowing through your hair, which I,

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:11:08

to me. Every word was like banging on, on the keyboard. I mean, you knew that and like, I would send you back a draft and I would be like, I have no fucking clue what to say right here. And like, that was what was great about having a coach is you would write it back and you were like, well, let's talk about this. I don't think the reader's going to understand this, you know, um, That, that was, that was a great experience for me when I would come, when I would come to a, whatever, a writer's block, I dead end, you always had a way for me to go to get around it, which I thought was obviously super helpful. And you mentioned the title of Marie Kondo's book, and I think a lot of people think about. The book they want to write and to give it a title. And then they write a book based off that title. And that was one of the things you also said to me was a, you were like, don't try to name your book, write the book and then name it. Because if you come up with a title of your book, what you're going to do is you're going to write a book that fits that title. Instead of writing the book you're supposed to write.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:12:06

exactly. It's so true. I mean, every once in awhile, lightning does strike. Right? Maybe you wake up, maybe you had this book title in your head for you. Years, and it is actually, uh, an effective north star. That's going to help you write a book and that is the right title. I'm not saying it never, ever, ever happens, but most of the time, there's just always a gap between what you think your creative work is going to be and what it actually becomes. And if you. Head into it, thinking, this is what it has to be. You're just sort of setting yourself up for frustration. Um, you have to be willing to admit that you don't know exactly how it's going to end up. It's like that quote that says, if you want to discover new lands, you have to get comfortable with not seeing the sight of land for awhile. You know, it's a little bit like that.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:12:58

haven't heard that quote, but.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:12:59

Well, I think I mangled it. So you might read it later and be

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:13:03

it out and like put it in the show notes. What the real quote was. Um, no, this is th that tripped me up for a while. And so many people knew I was writing a book because I told everybody I was writing a book and I started to try to build some anticipation about what the book is. And then people would say, inevitably, the first question was, what is it called? And I would be like, I have no idea. And. I remember I had given a speech and you had come to the speech and you and I had been writing together for a while and you would come to see me speak. And you, at the end of my speech, you came up to me and you said, I'm not sure what the title of your book is going to be, but the word shit's going to be, you said, well, you're like, don't do this shit. This shit works. This shit doesn't work. I'm not full of shit. Like who you were like, shit's your word?

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:13:52

Totally. I think we considered, I'm not full of shit. It occurs to me as you're talking that I have no idea what the title of this book is, would be a pretty great book title. People would want to read it.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:14:08

well, I, I know that it's, it works because I can write a second book and it can be called this shit works too. Which will happen at some point, listen, you know, when, and so people knew I was writing a book. And so I realized when people found out I was writing a book, so many people wanting to know how I was doing it and, and what my process was because so many people want to write a book, right. But a lot of people want to write a book. They're not sure what they want to write about them. Like they have this yearning to write a book, but they're not sure what they want to write about. Like, what does does that happen? Do people call you and say, I want to write a book, but I don't know what to write about. Like, what do you do in that case?

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:14:50

yeah. For the most part when by the time people get to the point of calling me, they have an idea of what they want to write the book about. Although I know a lot of people have a dream, a very legitimate dream of writing a book, even though they don't know what it would be about. And for those people, I would suggest actually, hilariously I'm contradicting myself is just to start writing, start making dates where you sit down and write some stuff. You might just have to. You might just have to get in the habit. You might just have to establish a relationship with your muse, for lack of a better term. A lot of times we don't know what we think about something until we read what we've written about it. So you might just have to do some sort of. Not completely aimless. You know, you don't necessarily want to write about what you ate for breakfast that day, but, um, there are amazing writing classes, writing seminars, you and I met at a Gateless writing retreat, which is a awesome way to get tapped into your, writer's voice and discover what's waiting to come out. Um, So that's what I would advise if you're just like, I know I want to write a book, but I don't know what it would be about is just to kind of start writing with a little bit of guide it's within some kind of container would be ideal because a lot of times you're going to be able to any other thing that is on your to-do list, you're going to do first and then you might not ever get around to writing. So if you had a class on Tuesday night where you knew they were going to give you a prompt, and then you were going to have to write something that would actually be very helpful.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:16:25

The process of writing makes you a better writer, like.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:16:28

It does.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:16:29

just the truth. Um, and I think there are people who want to write a book, but look at how many books have already been written on their subject and say, oh, what could I add it? Every story's already been told, like I could have looked at, you know, dig your well before you're thirsty. And rich dad, poor dad. And all of, um, your network is your net worth. Or like I could have looked at all of those networking books and said, well what do I have to add to this space? What do I have to say differently? And the truth is, is like your story that you tell is different and your experiences in your expertise are different. So, um, I think my question is even if somebody has a topic that's already been written on. There's still a way to write it in a new way. Correct?

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:17:17

absolutely. I mean, there are no new stories under the sun. Basically, I mean, we're all retelling some version of a story that has been told before some subject that has been covered before, I guess, unless we're some sort of, you know, experimental scientist and we've discovered a new light form. Um, but for the most part it's just about. Your perspective on this particular topic. And ideally you are, uh, seeing something that hasn't been talked about or that you're sick of everybody talking about it in this other way. And you wish that people were talking about it in this way, this perspective that you have. So it does help to have your unique spin on it, or your way in it's called packaging. And maybe you don't even necessarily have a unique spin, but you have a unique way to deliver the content. So my book, how to be a better person, I mean, all self-help books are about how to be a better person, but we packaged it in such a way. My editor and I packaged it in such a way that it is 401 discreet ways that you can be a better person. That's just one way to talk about it. I couldn't, you know, Glennon Doyle writes her very hilarious memoiring type books that are all basically how to be a better person too. And there's no one right way. We different people are going to need the same message in different ways at different times. Um, but it does help too. And we used a ton of your stories. I mean, you have these amazing stories. You really brought yourself to the table and it matched so well with what you, what you teach too. Like with people's lists of awesome shit that you tell people to create. You listed your list of awesome shit. And then all your stories were related to things on your list and you were leading by example. As you were also telling people what to do, you know? So there's always something unique that you can bring to it. And honestly, if you don't, please don't talk yourself out of writing that book because other people have written it before, because think about like all the Mexican restaurants out there or all the Italian restaurants out there, we all have our favorites. If you don't write your book, you're, you're basically depriving someone of their favorite Italian restaurant.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:19:32

Yeah, I like, I like you saying that you're. I didn't get that until after I wrote the book, because after I wrote the book, I started getting letters from people, thanking me for writing the book and like thanking me for being so open and honest about, you know, how my life and like how I found success and, and what that took. And if I didn't write that book, I was didn't denying that person, the ability to find somebody who they related to.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:20:05

Amen. Oh, those letters mean so much. Don't they? They mean everything. Yes.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:20:11

And so I will say to the listeners, if you have read a book by someone or a blog post, or a podcast episode that moved you, please let them know. We sometimes talk into a vacuum and we write into a vacuum and we put everything in the, out, into the ether. And sometimes we don't know if it's making a difference and it means a lot to know that it's making a difference for sure.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:20:33

And it reminds me of, I have never thought of doing this before, but I think this is such a good idea. If you are one of those people who are like, I want to write a book, but I don't know. You could write a letter to yourself as if it were coming from a reader,

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:20:46

right.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:20:47

and just think about like, it would really distill what if we help you think about what the reader needs to hear? And it'd be very motivating.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:20:56

So. One thing, a couple of things. Um, the difference between traditional publishing in self publishing. Can we talk about that a little bit? Because I self-published my book. I had a lot of advice from you and from other people in the publishing world that if I wanted to get my book to market and for what I wanted out of my book self publishing was the way to go. But I think a lot of people look. Th they are leery of it or they look down on it or it doesn't mean you actually really wrote a book. So can we just talk about that a little

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:21:26

for sure. I mean, yeah, self-publishing used to definitely be the domain of like your weird uncle who never leaves the basement and wants to write about it. Guana is you, you know, and so. They would mimeograph it and get it spiral bound and sell it out of the back of their car at the iguanas convention. And I think there is still some, there's a smudge, a whiff of that stigma still to self publishing, although it has come so far, I mean, say what you will about Amazon. They've really made it so easy to. Write your book, get it professionally designed. It's still an investment, right. Even though you self-published, you had to, you invested in me, you invested in design, you probably invested in buying several copies that you can bring to your speaking engagements. Um, but yeah. It, your book looks amazing who wouldn't know that it's who that is. Self-published quite honestly, and you can even like create an imprint for yourself or launch a webpage and give yourself a pub, a publishing house name, and then put that book and

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:22:32

did do that. I did give myself

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:22:33

you know, that's brilliant. That's brilliant.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:22:36

It's called deuce publishing. Get it shit publishing.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:22:44

I love it. I mean, really the possibilities are wide open. Um, also you were speaking, you were already interfacing with people with an audience who would be hungry to buy your book. And you were speaking a lot, like you needed the sooner you had a book, the better, because the sooner you would be able to start selling them. Um, and you could already tell people about them in general. And I actually have a download on my website. It's called, should I self-publish or traditionally published. And it is a freebie.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:23:16

okay. I can put a link to that

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:23:18

going to put a link to that in the show notes. because I can't tell you what it is off. The top of my head in general, self publishing is faster way faster. Traditional publishing often takes. You know, 12 to 18 months to 24 months, quite honestly, especially, um, you got to write a proposal, you got to get an agent. There's a lot that happens even before a publisher potentially buys your book and then. Just waiting to get a contract from a publisher could take three months. I mean, they just often don't move quickly, although they are moving more quickly than they have in the past. So that's not always the case, but just in general, you want to get something out in the next six months. So publishing boom automatically is the way to go. Um, traditional publishers are very interested in what they call your platform, which is a fancy way of saying your audience. How many people do you speak to on a regular basis? Because they want to know. All the details of that. And also how many relationships you have with people who have platforms, who will tell their people about your book, because they are basically looking at those numbers and using it to calculate how many books they think you're going to be able to sell, which is how many, how much of an advance they're going to give you? Um, Advances are typically pretty small. If you're a mid list author, that is not always the case, but just, I, you know, Roxanne gay, who's this very famous feminist author now. And she's a columnist for the New York times. She wrote her first book for $5,000. So, you know, if you're just starting out. It's probably going to be a very pretty low advance. Um, and you have to do a lot of work on spec. You have to write a proposal and you have to find an agent. It's just, it's not easy. Self-publishing in is in some ways, a lot easier also with traditional publishers, people think well, if I publish with a publisher, they are going to promote it for me, which is a myth.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:25:11

Hmm.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:25:12

They traditional publishers publish, I don't know, 50,000 books a year. You know, they, I have had a traditional publisher where you get their attention, their publicists attention for about two or three weeks. And they'll send out a press release for you. And they'll book you a couple of interviews and they might sell an excerpt of your book to a magazine. And then they're onto the next, it's like Lucy in the candy factory. I mean, there's another. Bunch of candy coming down the conveyor belt and they just can't pay attention to you anymore. So you're always no matter whether you self publish or you traditionally publish, you are responsible for promoting your book and marketing it and telling people about it and letting them know where they can buy it.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:25:52

What are the best pieces of advice I got from another author friend of mine? He's written 12 books. His first book he ever wrote was option for screenplay and was made into a movie. And he said to mutuals, what you do is you self publish your first book. And then hopefully that book is so good that you get a deal for your second,

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:26:10

Absolutely. Yeah. you sell enough of your self published books. Publisher will become interested in seek you out, and then you cut out trying to find an agent and writing a proposal and all that kind of stuff.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:26:23

What I didn't understand about writing a book is it's not just writing a book. It's not just getting your stuff on the page. It was working with you to get the right story and the right tone in the right journey. But then after the book was done, like then I, then I really started working. That was, I had to you and I worked together to get me a cover designer for the book. We worked together to get me someone who, who lays out the book. And what is the interior of the book look like? And I, then I worked with her, her name was Julie, and then I worked with her on actually getting it uploaded to Barnes and noble and to Amazon. And then she helped me work with somebody to convert it into a Kindle format. And then. I had proofreaders and like so much work happened after I wrote the book that you really guided me through. So. It's not writing a book is not just writing a book. It's it is a project you have to project manage that project. So if someone listening to this podcast, I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast are probably thinking if Julie can write a fucking book, I can write a book. Okay. So, you know, like where, how can they reach out to you? How can they work with you? What is the process for then, if this is something that is in their heart that they need to get out.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:27:34

Right. Well I love helping people write their books. So come to my website, which is my name, Kate hanley.com. I do a few different things. You know, I have a podcast as you set out, I'm a personal development coach. You have to look around a little bit, but there is a tab that says work with me and under work with me, there is some information about book coaching and ghost writing. Um, I do work a couple of different ways, the way you and I worked is actually my favorite way to work, where You really wanted to do the writing. And I. I thought that was awesome. But you knew that you were going to need some help thinking about the structure, but also kind of like staying on task. And what if I, what if you ran into a wall and didn't know what to say, that kind of

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:28:17

You were a task masker. When I knew I had a deadline for you, that's the only reason that chapter got written. I was like, shit. Uh, Kate has a deadline.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:28:25

It's really helpful to have to be accountable to someone else. So there's a little bit of accountability there. And then there's some, you know, developmental editing where I will say, I think we need more here, or this might work better in this other chapter. Or maybe save this for a blog post. If I ever tell you to save something for a blog post, what that means is like, this is not, this does not belong in the book. Um, That's my favorite way to work with people. And that's generally more affordable. I do also work as a ghost writer. I will write it for you. I'm not doing as much of that these days, although I'm not never saying number. I had too many ghost writing projects during 2020, and my kids were in remote school and they were home. And we were all working in the living room where my desk is, which was a really great place to have an office when everybody left the house every day and a really horrible place to have an office during the pandemic. And I, um, No, my brain is just a little bit tired from all the writing that I was doing while also yelling at my daughter to not watch Netflix anymore. So, um, but you can just reach out to me. I have a contact button on my website and there's a little form. And tell me about your book. Tell me something about your book or tell me, definitely tell me that you heard me on this podcast because any friend of Julie's is undermined.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:29:40

Yeah, I did. You did get so busy during 2020 that at one point you did say to me, um, I can't take any more referrals.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:29:48

I know that was pretty, I mean, to not to say that is, I hope indicative of just the fact that it was a really nutty year, so Yeah. I'm coming out of it though.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:29:58

Yeah. So one thing about the way you and I work together is I will say that the, where you Excel, and I know this is where you are, you know, it's where you Excel is whatever writer you're working with. You somehow can capture their voice. I would write a chapter and I would send it to you and you would send it back to me. And I would say, Fuck. That sounds more like me than when I wrote it. So I'm just, we're going to end with this. How do you do that? Like, how do you find that voice, that other person's voice? Because it is mind boggling. How good you are at it.

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:30:35

Well, thank you. There's two things. One is that for the most part, when we sit down to write something, especially something that we are going to put her name on and call ourselves an expert, and we're going to be the author of this. But we freeze up and we start writing like an asshole, or like we're trying to impress an English teacher or something. I mean, it's just what we do. We're trying. And when you try, you freeze up a little bit and you're just not loose and you don't sound like yourself. And that's another reason that my process works the way that it. does, where we get on the phone. And we talk so much in the beginning. It's because I am literally. Absorbing the way you talk and the patter of your speech and just, little things that you say. And I, and I think that that comes naturally to me because I moved around a lot as a kid, I had lived in five states by the time I was five and another five by the time I was 15. So. I am used to, I've moved from region to region of the country too, not just like new school, but I went from Rhode Island to Oklahoma and then Oklahoma to Alabama. And I would literally just try and blend in. So I have a very well-trained ear. And then I would, I, you know, depending on who I'm talking to and whether or not I've had a glass of wine, those different accents will come out. So this is actually a really cool way for me to just take something that comes naturally to me, this ghost writing piece. And put that into play. Um, cause it's kind of fun to write in someone else's voice, quite

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:31:57

yeah, it was amazing. It was amazing. And I'll tell one quick story before we end. Um, I was trying to decide whether or not. I was going to invest in working with you. And I talked to my friend, Joe, who is the author, and Joe did research on you. And he called me and he said, yeah, you work with her. He she's. She's great. That was great. That almost got me to crossing the line to work with you. I was in my car in the morning and I was listening to morning, Joe, and. A woman who had just written a book was on morning, Joe and I knew you were her ghost writer. And I was like, okay, I just gotten that call from Joe. And I was like, I, and it was like, almost like I was like, I need one more thing. I need one more thing to convince me. And you had told me, I just finished ghost writing this book or, or working with her on this book that in a similar fashion to me. And I was like, yeah. Okay. I get it. I get it. Cosmo. Is I 10?

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:32:55

That's so cool. I love that. I know. Well, we also had the benefit of sitting next to each other during a very like intimate writer's retreat. So, and that was a really cool way for us to launch into working together too. Yeah.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: 00:33:08

Kate, thanks so much for being here. This was super fun. I'm so glad to see you again. I haven't heard your voice in a little bit,

audio_only_16780290_Kate_Hanley: 00:33:13

Uh, no, thanks a lot. I really appreciate it, Julie.

Julie: 00:33:20

I wasn't lying. I know for a fact that if I had not worked with Kate Hanley, my book would not exist. There are a lot of things that you need to work through when writing a book and getting the words on the page is only a small part of it. First, you have to believe that your book needs and deserves to be written. You have to believe that people will benefit from what you have to say. I can't tell you how many times I said to myself who the fuck is going to read this book. I can't tell you how many times. I said, I hope people read this book. Define why you want to write the book? There can be and should be different reasons for me. I had so much knowledge and expertise around networking that I felt that if I didn't get it out of my head and onto the page, I was going to burst. I want it to have it as a perk to my speeches. Something that people could take with them and use as a guide to extend the experience with me. I wanted it to be that business card on steroids that Kate mentioned. Elevating me in the networking space and hopefully leading to more speaking engagements workshops, et cetera. When I finished the book, I cried. Not because all of the work was over, but because I didn't know if I had done enough, explained enough, given enough examples. I wasn't sure if the book was good enough. I called Kate. In the middle of my crying fit. She told me that almost every author feels this way when they stop writing, when they finish a project. I can only imagine painters feel this way too. Like when would one more brush stroke be too much? Kate told me whatever I thought I had missed. Would be the start of my second book and we could go from there. My book has been out for a year and not a week goes by that I don't hear from someone who has read it, thanking me for the book. Not just for the tips and tricks, but for my honesty and openness. This is why you write a book because you know, it will help someone else, you know, it will make someone else's path a little bit easier. I've had numerous people tell me they wish they had this book at the beginning of their career. That is why you write your book. Now. Alcohol wine cocktails and beer. They have all been written about in books and literature since the Bible. There is a reason why there's a drink called the Hemingway daiquiri. Drinks and literature go hand in hand. For example, tragic characters, the Plaza, hotel, and mint juleps make up one of the most pivotal scenes and F Scott Fitzgerald's 1925 classic. The great Gatsby. In a scene Tom's caught on to his wife's love affair and in a sweltering suite at the Plaza hotel, which actually was advertised as having air conditioning. And that air conditioning was simply large blocks of ice with fans behind them to dispel the cold coming off the ice. His wife, Daisy knows that Tom's caught on and tries to desperately to distract him. By offering up for refreshing mint juleps made from whiskey, sugar, and mint. Open the whiskey, Tom, and I'll make you a mint Julep, then you won't seem so stupid to yourself. Look at the mint. I have no choice, but to look at the mint now. My garden is full of it. And honestly should be categorized as an invasive weed, because if you have mint. You have a lot of mint. There's no way around it. So for today's cocktail, I'm heading to the garden for some freshmen and mixing up a mint Julep. Here's what you need. Four to five minute sprigs, just the leaves. Two sugar cubes or a half ounce of simple syrup, two and a half ounces of bourbon whiskey. And then you'll want some mint to garnish you. Place the leaves and the sugar or simple syrup into a Julep cup Collins glass, or a double old fashioned glass and metal together. I love doing this. I love muddling. At the bourbon filled the glass with crushed ice and stir well until the glass becomes frosty. Then you drink it. All right friends, that's it for this week. Please remember to subscribe, review and share with your friends. And if you're interested in reading my book, you can find it on Amazon or or Barnes and noble. I'll put a link in the show notes until next week. Cheers